Interview with Astrologer Charles HarveyAugust 19, 1983


Our interviewer is Michael Erlewine


Charles Harvey

The president of Great Britain's Astrological Association talks with Michael Erlewine about John Addey, the Cambridge Circle & more.

As president of The Astrological Association, Harvey is generally recognized as the practical successor to John Addey as regards the theory and practice of harmonics. The following are excerpts from an interview with Harvey and you editor (Michael Erlewine) that took place on August 19, 1983 during a visit to Big Rapids, Michigan.


Michael Erlewine:We all want to know more about John Addey. Where was he coming from in his mind? How did he get his training? Where did he get the depth that we are all so aware of?

Charles Harvey:John Addey was the moving light behind The Astrological Association. John Addey had this vision of an integral astrology. In other words, astrology that draws from every possible approach, opinion, reason, argument, research and so on. If you were interested in horary astrology there is a place for you. If you were interested in statistical research, or if you were interested in the spiritual dimension, or if you were interested in counseling, or whatever it might be.

John Addey is the key to all this. The first thing one has to know about John was that he started life as very much an outdoor person. He was a very accomplished athlete. He set long jump records. He was a champion footballer, cricketer, rower, and rider, and everything in that line. He's got Sun in Gemini, exactly trine Mars in Libra. He was really into that until up about the age of 23. He would have been quite happy to spend his life at the racetrack. He was very keen on racing horses, gambling, golf, and whatever. Then at the age of 23, he got struck down by ankylosing spondylitis, a kind of acute rheumatism, which strikes overnight. He had certain symptoms of this before, maybe because of athletics or whatever.

During the war, he was a pacifist. He was brought up as a Quaker. He was serving in the ambulance corps, and one night during the war there had been a delivery of coal in the ambulance yard. The ambulances couldn't get in, and so he spent ten hours at a stretch clearing all this coal, so that the ambulances could get in. He went to bed that night, and he didn't get up off his back for another year. He was totally stricken down; completely paralyzed from head to toe. He was in this condition, and that was the first time in his life... although, I don't want to exaggerate this... He was already of somewhat reflective turn. But he was just too outgoing and energetic. You know, Leo rising, Sun and Moon in Gemini, in the eleventh, really out there and alive. He had never really reflected about life, but this was just... wow... just running straight into a brick wall, knocked flat on his back, thinking. I believe it was during this time... I haven't got my facts exactly clear on this, but it was very close to this time... somebody who was involved in an order, a teaching order, spoke to him... A brotherhood, teaching the ancient wisdom... a mystery school.

John joined the mystery school, and he studied with them, and was incredibly active. That was the mainstream of his whole life. To him, astrology was simply a tool for mankind. The real thing was keeping your eye on the unity of all things. This gave him his incredible depth. People who come across John Addey, and just know his writing say, "Well, he is very much into mathematics and statistics." I think to know that he was really a mystic and a philosopher, is the key to the man.

Now John, when he got up off his back... The woman who had nursed him through – who he had been engaged to before – became his wife. He was a permanent cripple, because his spine was completely calcified. He had no use of his spine at all. He had to walk with sticks. The fact that he made as good a recovery as he did was because of the mystical insight he had. He did, in some sense, heal himself very deeply, although a lot of his body was irreversibly stuck.

He was coming with this background, in 1958 – although he really started in '56 – This whole idea is that we needed something beyond the Theosophical Lodge. We needed a secular body that did not have any particular slant, and he worked to put together an organization. They chose this moment and they started it. John in the first years was the person. He was the chairman, and he was the person to get out the lecture lists, and he put together The Journal. He did everything. Gradually this team built up around him and Brig. Firebrace, who we may have time to talk about at another point. The Association grew from a typed mimeographed bulletin four times a year, and it went, after three years, into finished publication... properly printed and so on... as soon as they could afford it.


ME:When did you tune into the fact that John was really a unique individual?

CH:I tuned into the fact that John was a special person the first time I met him. I think everyone does. I'm sure you did.


ME:Tell the people who never met him, who never had a chance to meet him because he is no longer with us, what he is like to meet.

CH:Well, John Addey, you would meet him, and as I had mentioned before, he didn't have the use of his spine or his legs. He walked with sticks. You noticed that in the first five seconds, and then after that, you never knew he wasn't twenty feet tall and racing up mountains. He exuded this incredible inner peace. You analyzed the situation and said, "This is impossible, here is someone who is totally constricted and has a wonderful smile on his face, a wonderful wry sense of humor, tremendously intellectually keen and at the same time the soul of harmony and generosity intellectually." If he really fundamentally and absolutely disagreed with something and considered it philosophically totally unsound, he would get as far as saying "Hum, maybe so, maybe so," you would think, "Well, he really thinks it's the pits."

Basically, he had this incredible capacity for accepting and listening and hearing where someone was coming from, and then reflecting back to you, and putting his finger on what would be useful to you at that moment... and incredibly encouraging. He was very good at finding the person to do a job, and then he would just hand it over to them. If they were having problems, he would talk it over on the phone. But he would just say, look, one of the first things an aspiring soul must cultivate (he never voiced this but he would show it in everything he did) is self-reliance. He would make people feel self-reliant, and in that sense he would bring out their real qualities. John came from the place where everyone has the spark of greatness in them. How to awaken the sleeping giant within the soul? He would never ever speak in this language. It was almost alien to him, but everything he did spoke it. You know he was a great trainer of souls.

He was a Pythagorean in this sense. He had that quality. But unlike the Pythagorean school, where you were beaten over the head, he didn't have that. He came from a very deep love. That was the reality that came over, this incredible warmth and wisdom. He wasn't in any way... He had Mercury in Cancer, but he wasn't into sentimentality. He wasn't into emotion. In fact, if he had a problem, that was perhaps his problem. He was in a sense cut off from emotional contact. But somehow he had this heart, which was not beyond that. You were aware that was a very important part of him that was simply in eternity. His head was there in the heavens and his feet on Earth. You spoke to him for ten minutes and you knew he had a vision. He could see it, and everything he was doing was to make this vision happen.

There was a quality about John that was very invisible. He was a mystic, but he never talked of it. You get people, where every second word is spirituality. He never used the word. He was consciously on the spiritual path, but you would never know it. It came through whatever he was doing. Similarly, he was deeply interested in mythology, but he would never overtly talk about Prometheus. He would illustrate it at a level where you could contact it in something you were familiar with.


ME:Can we ask you to talk a bit about Geoffry Dean, the author of Recent Advances, as you did last night? I don't think we got it recorded... about how you met him... how he showed up at you door.

CH:Geoff Dean, is a very fascinating individual. His mother happened to live about a half-a-mile away from my house. Geoff Dean was involved in astrology, and he came to visit the research section library, which is at my house. He turned up, and being Geoff Dean, he said, "What can I do?" He is a doer; he wants to get things done. He said, "What can I do to help?" so I said, "Well look, for a long time John and others have said what we need is a little eight page introduction about how to go about astrological research... a little thing with a bibliography, books to refer to, where to go, what to do, who is doing what and so on"... an eight-page thing, which we can immediately send out. We are constantly writing the same letters over and over again. "How about it?"

Twelve hours later, he came back with an eight-page document... all justified margins, and said, "This is what I have come up with, but I think there are some gaps in it." I said, "Sure there are gaps, so let's see what we can do," Two days later he came back with a thirty page document. I looked at that, and gradually it became apparent that Geoff Dean, having two degrees, one in chemistry, and one in information science, is very much the organized scientist.

He said, "Well look, the thing that is self-evident here is that there is all this amazing wealth of literature in this library, and no one has a clue what anyone else has done. We open a journal, and the article that has got references at the foot of the page... that tells you where this person is coming from... doesn't exist. One article in ten refers to anyone else on the face of the Earth."

We then realized we were in to something else. The concept of Recent Advances was to bring together all possible work that had been done in astrology, of any kind... not necessarily critical, but attempting to see how astrology works... trying to understand better the principals behind astrology. So began the most extraordinary marathon you will ever witness, with Geoff Dean coming day after day to 36 Tweedy Road.

He would arrive at 8o'clock in the morning, and leave at 10 o'clock at night, and would be in that library with the books. You would offer him a cup of tea, "No," he didn't drink tea. You'd offer him coffee, you'd offer him lunch, "No," you'd offer him anything... "No"... and for twelve of fourteen hours at a stretch, with his beautiful handwriting, taking notes, taking notes, taking stuff away to Xerox, taking notes, taking notes. I have never seen someone work with such 100% concentration and dedication.

He is one of those people who packs three man-years into each month, in terms of production. He is quite an extraordinary person. He realized that the first thing we had to do was to contact as many people as possible. So we put out feelers. The Association already had a very good network of contacts with all the main European and American astrologers. He started writing and started a dialogue with every key person we could find... what did they know of that we haven't got? And we would circulate this text that we had already. Then it would come back, and he would edit it. Recent Advances grew from an eight-page leaflet to a six hundred-page work.


ME:Do you know that Geoff is a very controversial figure here in the states? Why is that? Why did some Americans, and I'm not sure it's just Americans, have such difficulty with his book? What is your summation of that?

CH:I think the summation of it is that Recent Advances is a wonderful book if you take it as a reference book. It is a poor book if you take it as a book to give you anything to do with the quality of astrology. It is very dehydrated. It tells you facts and figures. Facts and figures are very few and far between. Geoff took it upon himself to distill out of facts and figures that hadn't been distilled... information or lack of information.


ME:So you're saying he didn't capture the spirit of some of the work.

CH:He was doing a job that no one had ever thought needed doing in this way. Astrology had to catch up with the 18th and 19th centuries in one fell swoop.

He was very much in love with astrology. He knew it worked. He absolutely had that poetic sense of astrology as an art form. At another level he wanted to get to the nub of this. Seeing John's work... seeing what could be done... seeing the work of the Gauquelins... seeing what we were trying to do in the research section. He was concerned with how we could further this. Now in doing this, there is a dehydrating quality. He is trying to get to the facts, and we know that facts without values don't really amount to very much. Somehow this squeezed out the very thing that astrologers love... which draws people to astrology.


ME:I should interject that there are a large number of astrologers... Charles Jayne would certainly be numbered... and myself, who feel that there is more than just a dehydration process. He made a lot of judgements and even catty comments along the way that they were really unjustified that really shouldn't be in the book.

CH:I think that what happened was that Geoff let out all his pent up frustrations... as somebody coming from organized science into an area, which he loved very deeply... at the complete apathy in the astrological community of attempting to intellectually question what they were dealing with.


ME:But you pointed out to me last night that Geoff thinks of himself primarily as a poet.

CH:He doesn't think of himself primarily as a poet, but he describes himself as a poet. He is a photographer, and so on. We all have our own particular brands of schizophrenia, and this is his. He is a poet on one side. Yet he knows there is one way of approaching truth. If something is true, it can be shown to be true.


ME:I have heard him, as I pointed out to you, switch from a very reasonable scientific approach to waxing on... most speculative... some lady from a small town, who had only been into astrology for three months, couldn't do any better. Have you ever seen him do that, and how do you explain that? How does that fit with the rest of it?

CH:I think it fits very well. If you have the Moon in Pisces on the Midheaven, and Sun in Capricorn with a strong Saturn, you have got a dilemma. He acts them both out. He finds them difficult to put together, but by God, you know he is trying. He feels that if he can get the facts, then he can add the values to them. In the process, I feel that his frustration with the lack of standards... we have to face this fact. There are some lovely people in astrology, but there is some very wooly thinking.


ME:Also, another point that we talked about last night. We talked about magazines and cooperative enterprises. It really looks like we are at the point where any major effort is probably going to involve a group of people, which leads me to the observation... Wouldn't it be helpful to temper his tremendous capacity of labor with a couple of individuals who had a better... like if John Addey had co-written that book, or yourself? I believe that we would have had everything that Geoff had contributed, plus more. It needed someone who would have tended to the spiritual, instead of desiccating everything.

CH:Right, Michael, I think we have to say that there are different books written for different purposes.


ME:So you are saying that Recent Advances II, which is coming out, will probably be a repeat in that element.

CH:I think it will tend to be the same way. I think we have to recognize that if it had been a cooperative effort it would have never gotten done. The thing about Geoff Dean is he has done it virtually single handedly.


ME:So we are to take it as an imperfect work, and be thankful for what we have got.

CH:The point is, he put the very first foundation under it. He said, "Look folks, you belong to a community."


ME:Even though he would dismiss someone like Johndro with just a single sentence or so?

CH:He drew inferences from inadequate data. He didn't have the time or the inclination. No, I wouldn't say inclination, because he has an inclination to get to the bottom of anything... but somehow he didn't get the feedback.


ME:But he played favorites. He certainly loved the work of John Addey... the English.

CH:There is a proximity. You know, I love my wife.


ME:I just want to hear you say it.

CH:It is proximity, isn't it? If you are writing from a particular perspective you hear very clearly, because you are obliged to hear, because if you get it wrong, it gets thrown back at you six times or twenty times. I think where Geoff deserves absolute 100% marks is that people have been talking about this for years and years and years and we still talk about it. There are two people who've seen what needs being done, and gotten down and done it. Or three people... they are Geoff Dean, who I have just talked about, and Michel Gauquelin, who many decry. But my God, he has come to America, and he has gathered together 1200 birth certificates of famous people.

In the whole of our community here, we never managed to do that. We managed to put out one book for siderealists, and California put out one book of 200 charts. The Guaquelins came over and they paid for every birth certificate they got. They have done that in the same spirit of saying, "That's what needs doing. My objective is to do this. I am just going to get this. How do I get there? Well, I do this and this and this. How do I make that possible?... and I do it."

That is another whole story. The story of the Guaquelins is a wonderful story. They were literally... I can see the Gauquelins in children's books in the future. They would not buy clothes for themselves. They would wear their overcoats inside in the winter because they could not afford to put on the heating, just so they could do the work they did. They were working 16 hrs a day, sometimes 20 hrs a day, and teaching whenever they could just to get a bit more money to go look in more registries to get more birth certificates. That is an extraordinary thing. The third person is John Addey, who again, had a vision, and said, "That is what has got to be done," and went about doing it.

I think back to Geoff Dean and Recent Advances. The problem with the book is that he was trying to come to conclusions, which he didn't have adequate data for. Because of his training he felt that he had to make some judgement about it, and come to conclusions. If he had left more space open for discussion... One of the problems with him is that he often draws conclusions, which the data does support, which people don't like. It makes people feel uncomfortable.


ME:True, there is controversy. I am playing the devil's advocate here. I appreciated the book very much. I have met Geoff in person, and certainly the man that showed up at my door looking like a mountain climber, with his pack on his back, was certainly not the man I expected to see show up. Geoff is a very live, sparkly, energetic kind of person.

CH:He is also the soul of kindness and generosity. He is extraordinary. I said how monastic he was, but I can remember occasions when he would have come over to our house in the morning, and he would have stopped on the way and picked a whole thing of blackberries, and brought them in, though he wouldn't eat one.


ME:He has one of the most amazing collections of colored slides that you could ever imagine.

CH:Yes, he has an amazing collection of colored slides. There you see all his poetry come out. He will give 120 slides in one hour and each one will be a perfect picture.


ME:He will have a joke to go with every one of them... a very dry sense of humor.

CH:His joke box cranks out a joke. He has a very dry Capricorn sense of humor.


ME:In fact, one of the things that we remarked is that he has each joke written down on a 3"x 5" card and he reads it verbatim with each slide.

CH:That's right.


ME:There is another individual I would like you to comment on. That is Charles Harvey. It is amazing how little we have learned about Charles. I can remember pictures of you in some of the early journals, standing in the back, working at a table. I remember one in particular. How did you become the president? How did you become involved in astrology, and what are some of your goals?

CH:I was very very blessed. I was interested in astrology at quite an early age, about 15. The first book I got out was a book on sidereal astrology, and that put me off for a while. It was because I couldn't understand all the precessional math. I just wanted something that would tell me something simple. I started reading popular articles, and gradually got interested. I had an illusion that I wanted to be a writer of children's books. I did quite a bit of writing. I went off to Spain with my manuscripts. By the time I was 21 I left school.

My two best subjects were chemistry and music. I eventually went more to music, but then I spent all my time at science society. I was thoroughly schizoid. I just didn't know which. I knew I had a natural affinity for sciences, and knew chemistry very readily, so it didn't interest me very much. The music I was very bad at, and therefore wanted to do something with it. I didn't know what I wanted to do at the university, but I had a feeling I wanted to do genetics. Genetics was sort of the thing I had a feeling I would like to do. Who knows, that could be something I would still like to do, because it is something you can't do yourself. In my family, there has been a tradition of people who don't go to university. They do it their own way. My father has never been to university, but he has honorary doctorates from many universities in his own particular specialty. Coming from that background, I thought I had to find my own way, because I simply didn't want to go through the machine of the university. I thought what I really wanted to do at that time was to write. I felt like saying something.

I went off to Spain with these manuscripts, and spent a month there writing, and then I went off down the Costa Brava, where I was supposed to meet up with some friends and have a bit of a holiday. On the train, after having gotten this one particular manuscript of this book complete... being very pleased with myself. I got off the train in Barcelona. I left the manuscript in the bag with all my papers on the seat. When I got back on, I said to the lady in front, "Where is my bag?" she said, "Oh, your friend just moved it up, he said he was taking it to the next compartment." And I said, "But I am traveling alone." "Ah", she said.

So I went out and talked to the station police. They said "Don't worry, don't worry at all, you'll find it. They'll just find it's full of paper, and drop it in the street; they won't bother to take anything. They are just after valuables."

So I waited in Barcelona for days and days and it never turned up. That completely wiped out that phase in my life. It was a trauma. There was one thing in that bag that I could replace. It was a book by Alan Leo called Practical Astrology. It was the little one, sort of tailor size. I got back to England, and I said to my father, "You know that book we had at home, Practical Astrology?" My father had always been vaguely interested in that way because he is a medievalist. I said, "Where can I get that." He said, "Go to Stewart and Watkins, in Cecil Court, Charing Cross Road." So I went to Stewart and Watkins. I had never been in a shop that sold anything remotely like it. I went in there, and there were astrology books spilling off the shelves. In 1960, astrology wasn't booming like it is now. There were hundreds of secondhand books, and all kinds of things there.

I just said, "Wow, this is it!" I replaced my practical astrology and got all these things, and I was very quickly told that there were organizations, and that there was a Faculty of Astrological Studies. At that point, I was going through various emotional things, with different girls and one thing and another. I was into it and not into it, and doing some jobs in my spare time to be able to go out. I was not quite centered.

Then an aunt died and left me about the equivalent of about $4000 then and about $15000 now. That was enough to keep me for a couple of years. With that, I bought up every single astrology book in sight. I went into a state of complete absorption with astrology and the I Ching and Tarot. It was astrology that really got me. Very quickly, as soon as I really started to go in, I found Ebertin; I found the Combination of Stellar Influences. I was very lucky to meet Ellic Howe, who came to a fundraising thing at The Astrological Association. He came along, and said, "All this traditional astrology, it's fine. There is a lot of interesting stuff in it. But what you really want to get into is what they are doing in Germany."

He took me home, that very day, that very evening, and he showed me how to use the 90 deg. dial. I thought, "Wow". This brought together all of the richness that I had felt from the traditional astrology, and now all the science side of my mind was suddenly going. This is the missing link. Suddenly we are talking formulas. As the same time, I came into contact with John Addey who looked me in the eye, and said, "Great, what do you want to do?" And I said, "Well, anything," and I started doing things like helping at meetings.


ME:The Cambridge Circle is very important in the history of the study of harmonics and astrology. Three astrologers coming together like that: John Addey, Charles Harvey and James Williamsen. Tell us something about James Williamsen.

CH:John Addey was giving the very first Carter Memorial Lecture in 1971, and this brilliant mathematician Dr. Williamsen, turns up at this lecture. Everyone felt slightly nervous. Here is the big PhD. brilliant mathematician, coming along. What is he going to say? He came up to John after that lecture. I had been in the chair... and he puts his arms around John, and he said, "You've said it."

If anyone wants to know something about the philosophy of astrology, and where it's coming from, and where it's going to, that Carter Lecture... It's just a little monograph, Astrology Reborn. It's a beautiful paper. That was the lecture. I was privileged to be in the chair when that was given. Jim Williamsen just said to him, "You've said it." It was the three of us there, and it was at that moment that the Cambridge Circle was born. And it was born in Cambridge.

Jim Williamsen had been interested in artificial intelligence from about the age of 15, when he saw a television program on Von Neumann... an interview with him which had presumably been made quite a few years before that. He already saw the incredible potential of computers, and he was already talking about machine intelligence, artificial intelligence and the intelligent computer. Jim at the age of 15 was just blown away by this. It became the idea, which haunted him, and when he went to college that was the thing he was into. Everything that he did was related to the idea of developing artificial intelligence. He was at Appleton, in Wisconsin, and then he went over to Stanford on a research fellowship. He was there for a few years, helping develop the artificial intelligence language LISP and the whole concept of artificial intelligence, which was later used by the space program.

While he was as at Stanford, one of the professors recommended him to go to Cambridge, and to the Oxford Computing Laboratory, and put him up for a NATO fellowship. He went over there on NATO grant, and was given three years where he didn't have to do anything. So Jim went over there... and this shows the magnitude of the man... there are two great Ivy League Universities, Oxford and Cambridge. They try to out compete each other in everything, from rowing onward. Jim was simultaneously working in the Oxford Computer Laboratory, and at Cambridge in the History of Science Department. When Jim arrived at Kings College, Cambridge, the professor said that Jim was the first bright light to arrive at Cambridge since Russell and Whitehead. Jim Williamsen was somebody of that caliber.

Now there is one very sad interlude here. Jim had, at about the age when Von Neumann came on the scene of his consciousness, contracted growth onset diabetes. Many think diabetes is... Well, you just take insulin and that's it. But if you get diabetes when you are an adolescent, you are more or less doomed to a process of gradual decay. By the time Jim got to Cambridge, he was already beginning to have problems with his eyesight, something called diabetic retinopathy. Now, Jim, because of his artificial intelligence studies... Jim Williamsen is another Sun-Gemini, born the day after John Addey, June 16, 1941, Leo rising, exactly the same degree as John Addey. Sun is more or less exactly the same position. But Jim has got Sun in Gemini, exactly square Moon in Pisces, opposition Neptune in Virgo, and that T-Square. He calls his whole approach to any intellectual problem think-feel, or feel-think.

He was coming at the problem of artificial intelligence from every possible angle. The one thing that he realized, the most important clue, was the whole mystical tradition of the oneness of man, and the idea of the universal mind. He said, "Well look, Hell's Bells, if we can make an artificial intelligence, it has got to be like the universal mind. What language does the universal mind speak? Who knows about that? Well, the only people who pretend to know anything about the universal mind are kabalists and astrologers and mystics. So he said, "Well look, maybe I am a mathematician, but I have to study these things." So he joined another mystery school, a completely separate one [from that of John Addey], and really soaked himself in the mystical tradition, and in Kabala and astrology. And it was astrology... suddenly, as soon as he came on it, all the bells rang, and the lights went to green, and he said, "This is it". This is where artificial intelligence has got to home in on. Because microcosm-macrocosm, here we are, we have got it in the physical. All of his work in artificial intelligence, from that point on was based with an astrological background. His whole cultivation of astrology, and his desire to get deeper into astrology, was on the premise that astrology was going to offer the key to the structure of the cosmic mind, the anatomy of the body of God. As Rudyard puts it, "Astrology is the algebra of life." Whatever way you like to look at it.

With this, he joins The Astrological Association, and starts to read John Addey. This is his first contact. Here we are... this beautiful synchronicity... Here he is a research fellow at Cambridge, and here is The Astrological Association, conference just down the road, taking place on his doorstep. It is just... WUNK... and that night, after the lecture... Jim had already written to me, and said he was coming. At that time he was Dr. Williamsen, I didn't know anything about him. I had agreed I'd see him. That I went back to his house and we sat up the whole of that night, after that lecture, and we talked all the way through that night. He just went zap, zap, zap, zap, zap, zap, zap. That was the birth of the Cambridge Circle.


ME:Can you say something about how you see the future of astrology?

CH:At the practical level, The Astrological Association's goal is to bring together all astrologers, and to communicate with all the organizations. For example, you get Transit and . Through that you'll know what's going on around the world, often better than you know from your own doorstep what is going on at your own doorstep. Looking ahead, I think that is the same message that I have for the next decade. The think that astrology really has to have is better communications. It would be impossible to think of the world of astronomy if all the different observatories around the world were all operating in isolation, producing isolated bulletins, and isolated thins. They have a network, and it operates. They have international astronomical unions, and it has been that way since the end of the 19th century. At some point, we have to have international astrological union. It just has to be. But that will only happen when the different groups, and the different countries, realize that they are all studying the same subject and the only thing to do is to collaborate. We try to get past the personality level.


ME:Thanks a lot. I see we are running out of tape. This interview has been real useful. How do you feel about it?

CH:Well, sure, it is always useful to talk to you Michael. I don't know why I haven't been here in so long, because the juice starts flowing whenever we get together.


About Astrologer Charles Harvey


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